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Day 8: Jazz't a minute


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#26 Clearasday

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:50 PM

Gotta say, I loved Kramer's character's accent
"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head."

#27 Jentastic!

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 06:40 AM

I thought everybody's character was a lot of fun :D

And some of the solutions were amazing. It was so entertaining. There should definitely be another. With more, active, players!
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#28 Kramer

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 10:39 AM

View PostClearasday, on Apr 23 2009, 09:50 PM, said:

Gotta say, I loved Kramer's character's accent

It was getting pretty torturous towards the end, and was in danger several times of lapsing into a Mr. T parody until I found some stock phrases. I really love saying "olllllllld" though :D

View PostJentastic!, on Apr 24 2009, 07:40 AM, said:

I thought everybody's character was a lot of fun :D

And some of the solutions were amazing. It was so entertaining. There should definitely be another. With more, active, players!

I think this game was at its most fun when everyone was role-playing. When we started talking tactics and stuff near the end it felt to me like gaming the game, like when you start thinking about getting your THACO to -14 or whatever in Baldur's Gate. The rules could do with a tiny bit of tweaking I reckon, but I'm not sure how.

I'd definitely play again though, and because of the mechanic of converting back and forth, small numbers aren't necessarily a problem (less of a problem than TWG for example), it worked ok with 6 players here.

Finally, I was really surprised to find out Jim was a ghost at the end. For some reason, I thought there were none left.

#29 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 11:08 AM

Re: numbers, I think it would have worked better with maybe 2 more actives. Any more, though, and the game would still have been going on a month from now.

Re: role-playing, I loved the characters, especially Kramer's, Jen's and Jim's, despite Jim's basically being himself (who else can actually envision Jim as an avatar of a fire god, quite happily and with no parsing errors whatsoever?). I did notice that it got a bit gamey at the end but I think that's probably inevitable - as the game goes on, people start to think about the win and get tired of writing in a southern drawl.
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#30 Inflammable Jim

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 11:33 AM

Hooray, I inspired divine revelation
You know...we lost the first battle of the Chesapeake because of a mysterious...treacherous...Ankylosaurus

#31 Hentzau

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 11:40 AM

View PostJosh, on Apr 24 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

Re: role-playing, I loved the characters, especially Kramer's, Jen's and Jim's, despite Jim's basically being himself (who else can actually envision Jim as an avatar of a fire god, quite happily and with no parsing errors whatsoever?). I did notice that it got a bit gamey at the end but I think that's probably inevitable - as the game goes on, people start to think about the win and get tired of writing in a southern drawl.
I actually preferred the end of the game - but then, that's just because I'm rubbish at roleplay (although writing the solutions was fun) and love gaming stuff out, and this is a lot more interesting than TWG in that regard in that there isn't a binary win condition; end of the game comes when the majority of the players agree, but first you have to figure out if you're likely to be on the winning side or not.

#32 Kramer

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:03 PM

Three final things from me:

1. The bit of the rules I'd look to change is around exorcisms and ectoplasms -- it occurred to me around day 6 or 7 that the humans do not have any real consequences for exorcising wrongly (they lose  1 point,) whereas for the ghosts to turn someone they have to look really suspicious by not posting solutions.  The trouble with it, is that whether they got a ghost or not, the person doing the exorcising can be absolutely sure that person is human next day. This is a bit of a problem if it is chained -- we knew for certain Clearasday was human after he'd been exorcised, he could then exorcise another one and we'd be more or less sure of two that people are human. The ghosts are in a bit of a bind then, because not posting a solution at a critical stage would be obvious and the human victory becomes very difficult to resist.

How to solve that? Possibly make it a bit harder for humans to exorcise -- 2 points rather than 1 would have made anyone think twice. I dunno, it just seemed to me at one stage in the game that us humans held a strong advantage due to the fact exorcism guarantees humanity.

2. So where's this ghost forum then? _

3. I thought Josh's opening post for Day 6 was really funny. I lolled.

#33 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:09 PM

Yes exorcisms and ectoplasms are not quite right. Additionally, the ghosts need some way to actively defend against exorcisms. I've not decided what yet though.
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#34 Hentzau

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:19 PM

View PostKramer, on Apr 24 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

1. The bit of the rules I'd look to change is around exorcisms and ectoplasms
My problem was that Jen came up with a completely spurious argument about what my theme was but sent the exorcism off right after making her post before I'd even had a chance to respond. Even though she was wrong there was nothing I could do about it. Perhaps we should get the person who sends off the exorcism request to state what they think the theme is in their PM, and it only goes through if the guess is relatively close.

(There's also the possibility of ghosts blocking exorcisms by sending their own off, which could also be a bit game-breaky.)

#35 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:26 PM

To be fair, Hentzau, by your own admission it wasn't completely spurious. It was stuff that you had put into your posts deliberately; sure, it wasn't your actual theme, but it was still there.
George Alagiaaaaaaargh: I lost my pecker in the siege :(

#36 Hentzau

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:41 PM

A lot of the stuff she pointed out was unintentional though - mostly things I'd added in an attempt to be funny with the solutions. I feel like I was punished for actually making an effort with them.

#37 Kramer

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:44 PM

Yes, I think correct guessing of the theme as a pre-condition for exorcisms would work very well as a means of evening up the odds.

#38 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:45 PM

Sure, but there's a pretty big qualitative difference between unfortunately coincidental and completely spurious. That you were making an effort is to be praised but she was just doing her job.

If you want something to blame then blame my crummy ruleset ^_^ Which, yes, will have to be fixed before this is run again. If it ever is, which I doubt, as I can't see it ever getting enough players again.
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#39 Hentzau

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:56 PM

View PostJosh, on Apr 24 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

Sure, but there's a pretty big qualitative difference between unfortunately coincidental and completely spurious. That you were making an effort is to be praised but she was just doing her job.
And I'm not blaming her for submitting the exorcism if the ruleset allowed her to, although I'm still entitled to think that despite her coup the previous day her logic in this particular instance was pretty bad and thus feel a little cheated. Anyway, we both acknowledge that a ruleset that requires only one person to believe you are a ghost for you to get screwed is kind of flawed, which is kind of embarassing for me too because I helped you come up with this particular mechanic during a discussion on IRC.

#40 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 01:07 PM

We didn't know until we tried. It's not like TWG was perfect the first ten times, either :)

And it's by the by now, but I don't agree that Jen's logic was bad. She spotted a pattern, a pattern which is objectively justifiable and acted on it, which was exactly the right thing to do, especially from a tactical standpoint - after all, as Kramer says, the cost of exorcising is probably a lowball in the current ruleset. That you feel cheated is reasonable - lord knows I know the feeling, as being lynched for the wrong reason in TWG is equally frustrating, especially when I'm actually a wolf - but you seem to be blaming her for that, which in the aftermath of a game that was, for the most part, amiable and fun seems like a pretty unfortunate conclusion.
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#41 Hentzau

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 01:38 PM

View PostJosh, on Apr 24 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

And it's by the by now, but I don't agree that Jen's logic was bad. She spotted a pattern, a pattern which is objectively justifiable and acted on it, which was exactly the right thing to do, especially from a tactical standpoint - after all, as Kramer says, the cost of exorcising is probably a lowball in the current ruleset. That you feel cheated is reasonable - lord knows I know the feeling, as being lynched for the wrong reason in TWG is equally frustrating, especially when I'm actually a wolf - but you seem to be blaming her for that, which in the aftermath of a game that was, for the most part, amiable and fun seems like a pretty unfortunate conclusion.
I agree with everything in this post except for this bit. If I'd been exorcised first, it would have been justifiable. But I wasn't. CAD had been exorcised first. CAD had a theme that was much more specific than the one I was tarred with. To say that he'd have theme that tied his hands but I got a theme that allowed me considerable scope in what I could write was logically inconsistent.

Now, I'm not blaming Jen for doing what she did, I'm really not. She was human throughout and did just what she was supposed to. I'm not even saying she shouldn't have pointed out the theme she did, but that flaw in it is a pretty big one and it should have made the whole line of questioning vulnerable. The problem is that I'm used to being able to reason/argue/threaten/bully/cajole/insinuate/smear/arm-twist my way out of it in a TWG game - and have fun in the argument - and even if I fail I at least had a chance, so it's a fair cop. In TWG I could have taken what I'd just said and made a decent fight out of it, and if I'd gone down it wouldn't have been for lack of effort on my part. In this case however it made not one iota of difference, and I'm frustrated because of it. Not because of the bad reasoning, but because it's an argument I'd usually eviscerate and yet I was powerless to do anything about it - once she'd convinced herself I was shifty I was finished, and I never got the chance to change her mind.

#42 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 01:43 PM

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of that. A bit of a ruleset rebalance is clearly needed.
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#43 Masked Dave

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 02:53 PM

View PostJosh, on Apr 24 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of that. A bit of a ruleset rebalance is clearly needed.
I agree with it too, although I'd be wary of making it too much of an argument-lead game like TWG - I quite like that this is very much a different game, not just an elaborate re-skinning.

But there does need to be some debate when a person is accused.

Maybe you need more than one person to conduct an exorcism?

An exorcist and an assistant, both lose a point.

If you don't have an assistant then it isn't guaranteed to work possibly?
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#44 Kramer

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 03:11 PM

View PostMasked Dave, on Apr 24 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Maybe you need more than one person to conduct an exorcism?

An exorcist and an assistant

My god man, that's a fantastic idea! May the power of Christ compel you!

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#45 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 03:32 PM

I like it, but the ghost does still need to have a systemic defence.
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#46 Kramer

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 03:36 PM

Well, if you take on Hent's suggestion that they need to guess the theme in order for it to take place then Father Karras has not only got to decipher the code, he needs to convince Father Merrin to help him too.

So in this case, Jen wouldn't have been able to exorcise Hent because she was wrong (you would have been lenient to give "fictional characters" -- perhaps a Roy Walker style "it's good but it's not the one" would have sufficed), and she would have also had to get another human on board.

This may create a second layer of slyness with the prospect of the human recruiting a ghost to the exorcism process, which will, of course, scupper the attempt.

I think that's a pretty robust defence for the ghosts, without making it too hard on the humans. Thoughts?

#47 Josh

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 03:40 PM

Honestly, I'd prefer for the ghosts to have an active recourse to defending themselves. I'm racking my brain for something that fits though and coming up with not much.
George Alagiaaaaaaargh: I lost my pecker in the siege :(

#48 Masked Dave

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 04:58 PM

The main reason they can't defend themselves too much is that no human would ever have a reason to argue against themselves being exorcised. There's no penalty.

Maybe exorcising a human needs a draw back.

Edit: The core of the game has to be based around getting your solution chosen, so maybe ghosts can use their points to defend themselves?
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but it seems that whilst I am Amazing you are Ultimate."- Lu

#49 Kramer

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 08:51 AM

Last night, I was listening to Frankie Laine's version of Hey Joe from 1953

0.27 in:

"Now listen Joe, I ain't no heel"

^___^